{"id":43733,"date":"2017-02-04T03:48:12","date_gmt":"2017-02-04T08:48:12","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/akunq.net\/tr\/?p=43733"},"modified":"2017-02-04T03:48:12","modified_gmt":"2017-02-04T08:48:12","slug":"thomas-de-waaldan-ermeni-turk-iliskileri-hakkinda-yeni-kitap","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/akunq.net\/tr\/?p=43733","title":{"rendered":"Thomas de Waal\u2019dan Ermeni-T\u00fcrk ili\u015fkileri hakk\u0131nda yeni kitap"},"content":{"rendered":"

\"Thomas<\/a>Kafkasya \u00fczerine yapt\u0131\u011f\u0131 ara\u015ft\u0131rmalarla ve Karaba\u011f \u00e7at\u0131\u015fmas\u0131n\u0131 konu alan \u2018Karaba\u011f: Bar\u0131\u015f ve Sava\u015f s\u00fcre\u00e7lerinde Ermenistan ve Azerbaycan\u2019 kitab\u0131yla tan\u0131nan gazeteci, yazar Thomas de Waal\u2019\u0131n yeni kitab\u0131 \u0130leti\u015fim Yay\u0131nlar\u0131\u2019ndan \u201cB\u00fcy\u00fck Felaket\u2019ten Sonra: Soyk\u0131r\u0131m\u2019\u0131n G\u00f6lgesinde Ermeni-T\u00fcrk \u0130li\u015fkileri\u201d ba\u015fl\u0131\u011f\u0131yla \u00e7\u0131kt\u0131. \u201cAgos\u201d gazetesinden Varduhi Balyan, De Waal ile kitab\u0131ndan yola \u00e7\u0131karak, g\u00fcn\u00fcm\u00fczde G\u00fcney Kafkasya\u2019da ya\u015fanan geli\u015fmeleri konu\u015ftu.<\/em><\/strong><\/p>\n

Yeni kitab\u0131n\u0131zda Ermeni-T\u00fcrk ili\u015fkilerini tarihsel bir perspektifle sunuyorsunuz. Bu kitab\u0131 yazma fikri sizde nas\u0131l do\u011fdu?\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n

Meslek hayat\u0131m\u0131n b\u00fcy\u00fck bir k\u0131sm\u0131n\u0131 ya Rusya\u2019da ya da Ermenistan, Azerbaycan ve G\u00fcrcistan gibi G\u00fcney Kafkasya topraklar\u0131nda ge\u00e7irdim. \u2018Do\u011fu Ermenistan\u2019 ve Da\u011fl\u0131k Karaba\u011f\u2019a yapt\u0131\u011f\u0131m ziyaretler sayesinde Ermenileri daha yak\u0131ndan tan\u0131d\u0131m. Fakat d\u00fczenli olarak yapt\u0131\u011f\u0131m bu seyahatlerde, Ermenilere dair kavray\u0131\u015f\u0131mda b\u00fcy\u00fck bir eksiklik oldu\u011funu hissediyordum. Yerevan\u2019dayken birdenbire ufukta g\u00f6rd\u00fc\u011f\u00fcn\u00fczde sizi \u015fa\u015f\u0131rtan Ararat Da\u011f\u0131\u2019n\u0131n muazzam varl\u0131\u011f\u0131n\u0131n verdi\u011fi his gibiydi biraz; asl\u0131nda hep orada ama i\u015fte bazen insan\u0131n g\u00f6z\u00fcne g\u00f6r\u00fcnm\u00fcyor. O kay\u0131p par\u00e7a \u2018uzaktaki o da\u011f\u2019 tabii ki \u015fimdi 1915-16 Ermeni Soyk\u0131r\u0131m\u0131 olarak adland\u0131rd\u0131\u011f\u0131m\u0131z olaylar s\u0131ras\u0131nda yiten insanlar, kaybedilen Ermeni anavatan\u0131n\u0131n sebep oldu\u011fu deh\u015fet ve onun modern Ermenistan tarihi \u00fczerindeki etkisiydi.<\/p>\n

Benim i\u00e7in d\u00f6n\u00fcm noktas\u0131, New York Ba\u015fepiskoposu Barsamian\u2019\u0131n beni Amerikal\u0131 Ermenilerin T\u00fcrkiye\u2019nin do\u011fusuna yapaca\u011f\u0131 hac yolculu\u011funa davet etmesi oldu. Atalar\u0131n\u0131n topraklar\u0131n\u0131 ziyaret eden, \u00e7o\u011fu ya\u015fl\u0131lardan olu\u015fan bir grup Ermeni ile ge\u00e7irdi\u011fim birka\u00e7 g\u00fcn, unutulmaz ve dokunakl\u0131 bir deneyimdi. Bu kadar etkilenmemin ilk sebebi, yolculukta o insanlar\u0131n i\u00e7inden d\u00f6k\u00fcl\u00fcveren unutulmaz aile hik\u00e2yeleriydi. \u0130kincisi, bu tarihi yerleri ziyaret edebilme \u015fans\u0131n\u0131 yakalam\u0131\u015f olmamd\u0131. \u00dc\u00e7\u00fcnc\u00fcs\u00fc de bu yolculu\u011fu yapt\u0131\u011f\u0131m 2012 y\u0131l\u0131nda Do\u011fu Anadolu ge\u00e7mi\u015fini ve tarihini kabulleniyordu; tan\u0131\u015ft\u0131\u011f\u0131m\u0131z T\u00fcrklerin ve K\u00fcrtlerin neredeyse hepsi \u00e7ok samimi davrand\u0131lar. Hem T\u00fcrkler hem de K\u00fcrtler b\u00f6lgelerinin Ermeni miras\u0131 ve 1915-16\u2019da ne kadar \u00e7ok \u015fey kaybedildi\u011fi konusunda son derece samimi ve d\u00fcr\u00fcstlerdi.<\/p>\n

Benim i\u00e7in bu yolculuk, bu zor ve karma\u015f\u0131k meselenin kap\u0131s\u0131n\u0131 a\u00e7an anahtar oldu. Sonraki y\u0131llarda bir\u00e7ok Ermeni, K\u00fcrt ve T\u00fcrk ile uzun uzun konu\u015farak, Ermeni-T\u00fcrk ili\u015fkilerini ke\u015ffederek epey zaman ge\u00e7irdim. Ben akademik olarak tarih\u00e7i de\u011filim; se\u00e7kin tarih\u00e7ilerin on y\u0131llard\u0131r \u00e7al\u0131\u015ft\u0131\u011f\u0131 bir alana katk\u0131 sunmaya kalk\u0131\u015fmam uygun olmazd\u0131. Fakat kendimi, yak\u0131n ge\u00e7mi\u015f ve tarihin bug\u00fcne etkisi \u00fczerine \u00e7al\u0131\u015fan ve zaman\u0131n siyasi ba\u011flam\u0131n\u0131 iyi kavrayan bir \u2018\u015fimdiki zaman tarih\u00e7isi\u2019 olarak tan\u0131mlayabilirim. Kitab\u0131m\u0131n temas\u0131 da bu zaten; i\u015flerin neden bu kadar de\u011fi\u015fti\u011fini ve olaylardan y\u00fcz y\u0131l sonra bile bu meselenin neden h\u00e2l\u00e2 bu kadar sanc\u0131l\u0131 oldu\u011funu irdeleyen, 1916 sonras\u0131 Ermeni-T\u00fcrk ili\u015fkilerinin \u2018tarihinin tarihi\u2019 \u00fczerine bir \u00e7al\u0131\u015fma.<\/p>\n

\u015eu anki Ermenistan-T\u00fcrkiye uzla\u015fma s\u00fcreci hakk\u0131nda ne d\u00fc\u015f\u00fcn\u00fcyorsunuz? Size g\u00f6re ne gibi engeller var?<\/strong><\/p>\n

Barda\u011f\u0131n yar\u0131s\u0131 dolu mu, bo\u015f mu diye sorulur ya hani, bu da biraz ona benziyor. Yani nereden bakt\u0131\u011f\u0131n\u0131za ba\u011fl\u0131. \u0130yimser olan biri, barda\u011f\u0131n yar\u0131s\u0131n\u0131n dolu oldu\u011funu s\u00f6yleyecektir ama k\u00f6t\u00fcmser olan ise yar\u0131s\u0131 bo\u015f bir bardak g\u00f6recektir. Ermenistan-T\u00fcrkiye ili\u015fkileri konusunda h\u00e2l\u00e2 barda\u011f\u0131n yar\u0131s\u0131n\u0131n dolu oldu\u011funu s\u00f6ylemek i\u00e7in ge\u00e7erli sebeplerimiz var. \u00d6ncelikle \u015f\u00f6yle bir ger\u00e7ek var: 15 y\u0131l \u00f6nce T\u00fcrkiye\u2019de yapt\u0131\u011f\u0131m g\u00f6r\u00fc\u015fmeleri anlatmam ve bu g\u00f6r\u00fc\u015fmeleri anlatan bir kitab\u0131n T\u00fcrkiye\u2019de yay\u0131nlanmas\u0131 m\u00fcmk\u00fcn olmazd\u0131. T\u00fcrkiye toplumumun b\u00fcy\u00fck bir k\u0131sm\u0131, neredeyse t\u00fcm Osmanl\u0131 Ermenileri\u2019nin \u00f6ld\u00fcr\u00fcld\u00fc\u011f\u00fc, tehcir edildi\u011fi veya zorla M\u00fcsl\u00fcmanla\u015ft\u0131r\u0131ld\u0131\u011f\u0131 tarihlerinin karanl\u0131k sayfalar\u0131yla y\u00fczle\u015fti. 1970\u2019li y\u0131llarda T\u00fcrkiye\u2019de k\u00f6k salan inkarc\u0131 anlat\u0131 ge\u00e7ersiz hale geldi. Tarih\u00e7iler ger\u00e7ek olaylar\u0131 yaz\u0131yor ve kitaplar bas\u0131l\u0131yor. Birka\u00e7 kilise yeniden a\u00e7\u0131ld\u0131. S\u0131radan Ermeniler ve T\u00fcrkler aras\u0131nda k\u00fclt\u00fcrel d\u00fczeyde bir\u00e7ok ba\u011f kuruldu.<\/p>\n

Fakat bir yandan barda\u011f\u0131n yar\u0131s\u0131n\u0131n bo\u015f oldu\u011funu s\u00f6ylemek de m\u00fcmk\u00fcn. T\u00fcrkiye\u2019deki Ermeni mimari miras\u0131n\u0131n \u00e7ok b\u00fcy\u00fck bir k\u0131sm\u0131 h\u00e2l\u00e2 viran h\u00e2lde. Ders kitaplar\u0131 h\u00e2l\u00e2 tarihin yanl\u0131\u015f bir versiyonunu anlat\u0131yor. Bir\u00e7ok Ermeni ve T\u00fcrk h\u00e2l\u00e2 birbirine \u00f6fkeli. S\u0131n\u0131r\u0131n a\u00e7\u0131lmas\u0131n\u0131 ve diplomatik ili\u015fkilerin kurulmas\u0131n\u0131 sa\u011flayabilecek olan protokoller s\u00fcreci de 2010\u2019da bo\u015fa \u00e7\u0131kt\u0131. Dahas\u0131, o zamandan bu yana resmi ili\u015fkiler daha da k\u00f6t\u00fcye gitti ve yeni bir a\u00e7\u0131l\u0131m olaca\u011f\u0131na dair pek umut yok. Ankara ve Yerevan aras\u0131nda resmi d\u00fczeyde bir yak\u0131nla\u015fma olmad\u0131k\u00e7a s\u0131radan insanlar\u0131n yapabilece\u011fi \u015feyler k\u0131s\u0131tl\u0131.<\/p>\n

T\u00fcrkiye-Ermenistan ili\u015fkilerinde Azerbaycan fakt\u00f6r\u00fcne gelecek olursak, T\u00fcrkiye\u2019nin Nisan 2016\u2019da Karaba\u011f\u2019da ya\u015fanan d\u00f6rt g\u00fcnl\u00fck sava\u015ftaki tutumu hakk\u0131nda ne d\u00fc\u015f\u00fcn\u00fcyorsunuz? Bu tutum, T\u00fcrkiye-Ermenistan ili\u015fkilerini nas\u0131l etkiledi veya etkileyecek?<\/strong><\/p>\n

Bana kal\u0131rsa Ermenistan-Azerbaycan ve Ermenistan-T\u00fcrkiye ili\u015fkilerini iki ayr\u0131 mesele olarak ele almal\u0131y\u0131z. Azerbaycanl\u0131lar\u0131n ve T\u00fcrklerin \u00e7ok ortak noktas\u0131 olsa da nihayetinde farkl\u0131 tarihleri, dini aidiyetleri ve d\u00fcnya g\u00f6r\u00fc\u015fleri olan iki ayr\u0131 halklar. Bilinen tarihi bir ger\u00e7e\u011fi bir kere daha tekrarlayal\u0131m: T\u00fcrklerin \u00e7o\u011funlu\u011fu S\u00fcnni\u2019dir ve Osmanl\u0131 \u0130mparatorlu\u011fu soyundan gelir; Azerbaycanl\u0131lar\u0131n \u00e7o\u011funlu\u011fuysa \u015eii\u2019dir ve tarihlerinin b\u00fcy\u00fck bir k\u0131sm\u0131nda Pers veya Rus hakimiyeti alt\u0131nda ya\u015fam\u0131\u015flard\u0131r.<\/p>\n

Ermeni-T\u00fcrk ili\u015fkileri olduk\u00e7a asimetriktir; Ermeniler, T\u00fcrk\/Osmanl\u0131 yetkililer y\u00fcz\u00fcnden b\u00fcy\u00fck ac\u0131lar \u00e7ekmi\u015ftir. Tabii Ermeniler de T\u00fcrklere ac\u0131 \u00e7ektirmi\u015ftir ama bu \u00e7ok daha hafiftir. Ermeniler ve Azerbaycanl\u0131lar aras\u0131ndaki \u00e7at\u0131\u015fma a\u015fa\u011f\u0131 yukar\u0131 simetriktir; bu \u00e7at\u0131\u015fmada her iki taraf da birbirinden \u00e7ekmi\u015ftir ve her iki taraf\u0131n da \u015fikayet\u00e7i olmak i\u00e7in me\u015fru gerek\u00e7eleri vard\u0131r.<\/p>\n

Yani bence \u015fu an T\u00fcrkiye\u2019nin Karaba\u011f \u00e7at\u0131\u015fmas\u0131nda Azerbaycan devlet politikas\u0131n\u0131 destekliyor olmas\u0131 talihsiz bir durum. Azerbaycan\u2019a da hi\u00e7bir faydas\u0131 olmayan bu tutum, Ermenistan-T\u00fcrkiye aras\u0131ndaki uzla\u015fma giri\u015fimlerini de olumsuz etkiliyor. T\u00fcrkiye\u2019nin daha objektif kal\u0131p, Bak\u00fc\u2019deki h\u00fck\u00fcmeti b\u00f6lgede bar\u0131\u015f\u0131 sa\u011flamak i\u00e7in daha cesur \u00f6d\u00fcnler vermeye ikna edecek bir \u2018tarafs\u0131z arac\u0131\u2019 konumunda olmas\u0131 \u00e7ok daha iyi olur. Bu, T\u00fcrkiye de dahil herkesin yarar\u0131na olacakt\u0131r.<\/p>\n

Ermenistan-T\u00fcrkiye normalle\u015fme s\u00fcrecine d\u00f6necek olursak, sizce hem Ermenistan hem de T\u00fcrkiye taraf\u0131n\u0131n bu konuda atmas\u0131 gereken ad\u0131mlar nelerdir?<\/strong><\/p>\n

Bu zor meselelerin par\u00e7as\u0131 olan iki taraf da birbirine kar\u015f\u0131 iyi niyet g\u00f6stermeli ve ad\u0131mlar atmal\u0131. Bu ad\u0131mlar\u0131n da kar\u015f\u0131l\u0131kl\u0131 olmas\u0131 gerekiyor. Ben bu ad\u0131mlar\u0131, her biri bir sonrakini devirerek harekete ge\u00e7iren domino ta\u015flar\u0131na benzetiyorum. Ermenistan ve Azerbaycan gibi tarihsel yaralar\u0131na dair g\u00fc\u00e7l\u00fc duygular\u0131 olan k\u00fc\u00e7\u00fck toplumlar\u0131n ilk ad\u0131m\u0131 atmas\u0131 zordur. Daha b\u00fcy\u00fck ve g\u00fc\u00e7l\u00fc bir devlet olan T\u00fcrkiye\u2019nin ilk ad\u0131m\u0131 atmas\u0131 daha mant\u0131kl\u0131 olacakt\u0131r.<\/p>\n

Bence ilk ad\u0131m diplomatik ili\u015fkilerin d\u00fczeltilece\u011finin ilan edilip s\u0131n\u0131r\u0131n a\u00e7\u0131lmas\u0131 olmal\u0131. Bir de mesela Talat Pa\u015fa\u2019n\u0131n ad\u0131n\u0131 ta\u015f\u0131yan sokaklar\u0131n adlar\u0131n\u0131n de\u011fi\u015ftirilmesi gibi sembolik hareketler de g\u00f6rmek isterim. Elbette Ankara\u2019daki h\u00fck\u00fcmetin 1915-16\u2019ya dair ink\u00e2rc\u0131 yakla\u015f\u0131m\u0131 resmi olarak reddetti\u011fine dair g\u00fc\u00e7l\u00fc bir i\u015faret ve 1915-16\u2019da hayat\u0131n\u0131 kaybedenlerin torunlar\u0131ndan \u00f6z\u00fcr dileyen daha dolu bir a\u00e7\u0131klama g\u00f6rmeyi de isteriz. T\u00fcm bunlar \u2018soyk\u0131r\u0131m\u2019 kelimesini kullanmadan da yap\u0131labilir.<\/p>\n

Ermenistan taraf\u0131na gelecek olursak, onlar\u0131n da atmas\u0131 gereken ad\u0131mlar var. Her \u015feyden \u00f6nce, Da\u011fl\u0131k Karaba\u011f s\u0131n\u0131rlar\u0131 d\u0131\u015f\u0131ndaki i\u015fgal edilmi\u015f b\u00f6lgelerin tekrar Azerbaycan\u2019\u0131n kontrol\u00fcne verilmesini \u00f6ng\u00f6ren bir yakla\u015f\u0131mla, Karaba\u011f \u00e7at\u0131\u015fmas\u0131na dair daha ciddi ve kapsaml\u0131 m\u00fczakereler y\u00fcr\u00fctme konusunda\u00a0 kararl\u0131l\u0131k g\u00f6stermeli. T\u00fcrkiye konusunda da, 1970\u2019li ve 80\u2019li y\u0131llarda Ermeni terr\u00f6ristlerin \u00f6ld\u00fcrd\u00fc\u011f\u00fc diplomatlar\u0131n akrabalar\u0131ndan \u00f6z\u00fcr dileyen bir a\u00e7\u0131klama yay\u0131nlamak uygun olacakt\u0131r. Ama tekrar edeyim: Ermenistan taraf\u0131 ancak T\u00fcrkiye ilk ad\u0131m\u0131 att\u0131ktan sonra harekete ge\u00e7ecektir.<\/p>\n

Azerbaycan\u2019\u0131n yapmas\u0131 gerekense son derece basit: Ermenistan-T\u00fcrkiye normalle\u015fme s\u00fcrecinin \u00f6n\u00fcnde engel te\u015fkil etmemeli ve bu normalle\u015fmenin Ermenistan-Azerbaycan \u00e7at\u0131\u015fmas\u0131nda uzla\u015fmaya varmak konusunda ne kadar etkili bir kataliz\u00f6r olabilece\u011fini anlamal\u0131.<\/p>\n

http:\/\/www.ermenihaber.am\/tr\/news\/2017\/02\/03\/Thomas-de-Waal-Ermeni-T%C3%BCrk-kitap\/98584<\/em><\/strong><\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

Kafkasya \u00fczerine yapt\u0131\u011f\u0131 ara\u015ft\u0131rmalarla ve Karaba\u011f \u00e7at\u0131\u015fmas\u0131n\u0131 konu alan \u2018Karaba\u011f: Bar\u0131\u015f ve Sava\u015f s\u00fcre\u00e7lerinde Ermenistan ve Azerbaycan\u2019 kitab\u0131yla tan\u0131nan gazeteci, yazar Thomas de Waal\u2019\u0131n yeni kitab\u0131 \u0130leti\u015fim Yay\u0131nlar\u0131\u2019ndan \u201cB\u00fcy\u00fck Felaket\u2019ten Sonra: Soyk\u0131r\u0131m\u2019\u0131n G\u00f6lgesinde Ermeni-T\u00fcrk \u0130li\u015fkileri\u201d ba\u015fl\u0131\u011f\u0131yla \u00e7\u0131kt\u0131. \u201cAgos\u201d gazetesinden Varduhi Balyan, De Waal ile kitab\u0131ndan yola \u00e7\u0131karak, g\u00fcn\u00fcm\u00fczde G\u00fcney Kafkasya\u2019da ya\u015fanan geli\u015fmeleri konu\u015ftu. Yeni kitab\u0131n\u0131zda […]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":7,"featured_media":43734,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[55,1,54,71],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-43733","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-ermenistan-turkiye","category-haberler","category-kitaplar-elestiriler","category-mulakatlar"],"yoast_head":"\nThomas de Waal\u2019dan Ermeni-T\u00fcrk ili\u015fkileri hakk\u0131nda yeni kitap - Bati Ermenistan Ve Bati Ermenileri Sorunlari Ara\u015ftirmalar Merkezi<\/title>\n<meta name=\"robots\" content=\"index, follow, max-snippet:-1, max-image-preview:large, max-video-preview:-1\" \/>\n<link rel=\"canonical\" href=\"https:\/\/akunq.net\/tr\/?p=43733\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:locale\" content=\"en_US\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:type\" content=\"article\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:title\" content=\"Thomas de Waal\u2019dan Ermeni-T\u00fcrk ili\u015fkileri hakk\u0131nda yeni kitap - Bati Ermenistan Ve Bati Ermenileri Sorunlari Ara\u015ftirmalar Merkezi\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:description\" content=\"Kafkasya \u00fczerine yapt\u0131\u011f\u0131 ara\u015ft\u0131rmalarla ve Karaba\u011f \u00e7at\u0131\u015fmas\u0131n\u0131 konu alan \u2018Karaba\u011f: Bar\u0131\u015f ve Sava\u015f s\u00fcre\u00e7lerinde Ermenistan ve Azerbaycan\u2019 kitab\u0131yla tan\u0131nan gazeteci, yazar Thomas de Waal\u2019\u0131n yeni kitab\u0131 \u0130leti\u015fim Yay\u0131nlar\u0131\u2019ndan \u201cB\u00fcy\u00fck Felaket\u2019ten Sonra: Soyk\u0131r\u0131m\u2019\u0131n G\u00f6lgesinde Ermeni-T\u00fcrk \u0130li\u015fkileri\u201d ba\u015fl\u0131\u011f\u0131yla \u00e7\u0131kt\u0131. \u201cAgos\u201d gazetesinden Varduhi Balyan, De Waal ile kitab\u0131ndan yola \u00e7\u0131karak, g\u00fcn\u00fcm\u00fczde G\u00fcney Kafkasya\u2019da ya\u015fanan geli\u015fmeleri konu\u015ftu. 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